Beiträge von goriath

    ECS L4S5A3 (V1.1A) - SiS645DX/B0 + SiS962L
    HT: Laut Handbuch JA - AGP: unbekannt
    Anmerkung: 10/100 Ethernet, USB 2.0

    ECS L4S5A3:
    NB/SB: SiS645DX/B0 + SiS962Lua
    PCB Rev: 1.1A (the only available)
    BIOS Rel: 1.0a (2003/07/31 released - the only available)

    Verdict: :spitze:
    AGP: True AGP Universal slot following 1.0 (3.3V@1x/2x) & 2.0 (1.5V@1x/2x/4x) specs.
    HT: Confirmed

    Personal side note:
    I love EliteGroup mobos, bus this one, unfortunately, is ridiculously poor. The layout is neat and comfortable. I love the P4 and ATX power molex placed at the edges of the board, while other boards might have connectors placed awkwardly (see floppy and molex connectors on the L4S5A/DX+ :rolleyes: ). But the CPU power supply line is poor, only 2-phases. Someone may observe that for Northwood based systems it's enough, while 3-phases design is needed for platform designed around Prescott core. The BIOS is designed to keep the board alive and make the basic adjustments to run the board properly, nothing less nothing more.
    I tested this board exaclty 2 years ago (17/02/2012 lol!) but sadly my thoughts about the poor design were confirmed when it ceased to work few months ago (not while running 3dfx cards anyway).

    Here a pic from the good old times we spent together:

    [Blockierte Grafik: https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/t31/332418_3311982729572_561987773_o.jpg]

    P.S: That's a GREAT thread :spitze: , please keep it running! I might have other compatible boards to add, I'll check later...

    Nouda
    I was referring to a REV A1. We (me, Löschzwerg and few others) tried to mod a regular REV A1 to make it work at 1.5V but as I was saying the card can't operate stable so far. Now I picked up another motherboard with AGP 3.0 since:

    1) I still have to see my REV A2 working at 1.5V since the only AGP 3.0 motherboard I tried (P4C800-E Dlx) can't run the card normally.
    2) If it's going to work at 1.5V on the ViA PT880 could be easier troubleshoot issues on the REV A1.

    My primary goal would be to achieve 1.5v stable operation on the normal REV A1 in order to observe how the card will act in the long run and if it's really safe or not.

    P.S.
    As for the question about prototype cards...
    These REV A2 that came up from eBay AREN'T protocards, that's sure. They haven't NFR stickers nor e-tags and as you said already the "warranty" sticker says everything. Anyone that sell you these cards as prototypes is cheating you.

    As Löschzwerg said, we attempted to modify regular Voodoo5 5500 cards. They run at 1.5V but the results are unsatisfactory, since the card is not stable and hangs during tests.

    BTW, I'm going to test the cards on another platform (ViA PT880). Will post the results as soon as possible.

    As for the A2 TYPEDET question check for my previous posts back in this discussion.

    If I read right you have to set Pin C15 to VCC (or high) in order to enable AGP 4X Mode AND to set D15 to GND (or low) to disable AGP 2x. Maybe you have to set D13 to GND too to indicate A2 silicon. I will not test it on my card, perhaps I can get a 5k5 AGP for cheap then I maybe do the mod.

    I noticed those strapping pins too, but as Löschzwerg said those are already pulled down (AGP4x/2x OFF) since the Voodoo5 is a PCI66 adapter; I suppose they are pulled high for the Voodoo4. BTW, if someone still isn't convinced about AGP 4X incompatibility we can always play with these strapping pads later. In this moment I'm focusing on the power signaling.

    If I read right you have to set Pin C15 to VCC (or high) in order to enable AGP 4X Mode AND to set D15 to GND (or low) to disable AGP 2x. Maybe you have to set D13 to GND too to indicate A2 silicon. I will not test it on my card, perhaps I can get a 5k5 AGP for cheap then I maybe do the mod.

    I'm not sure this does have anything to do with the voltage setting ?( Just possible AGP feature set and we all know the V5 can't do anything more than PCI66.

    goriath: Thanks for the research. I think unsoldering the VSA100 of a V4 AGP might help to identify the needed configuration.

    Lippi: Durchaus möglich. Schau mal ob im Bios die AGP Geschwindigkeit auf 1x eingestellt werden kann.

    CryptonNite: Ich werd mal den VSA von einer toten V4 ablöten und schauen wie die Pins geschaltet sind. Bei einer normalen V5 führen C15/D15 über 4,7kOhm nach Masse, sprich AGP2x/4x ist OFF.


    Thanks, that would be really of help.

    Well, I spent the whole day reading all the thread and trying to understand what google translated in english (you can figure it out) ...

    First of all, kudos to Löschzwerg and (if I understood well) Eric Cantona which managed to start their REVA2 into 1.5V platforms.
    In the last week I tried to understand what's mysteriously laying behind the Voodoo5 5500 AGP 2.0. Would be nice to understand (if possible) how to mod a REVA in the way it can work properly into an AGP 1.5V motherboard like seems to able to do the REVA2.

    Looking at napalm databook there are three elements which seem involved into the AGP 2.0 design:

    [Blockierte Grafik: http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3228/i2k1.png]

    1) The well known TYPEDET, position C1 on the BGA package
    (C1'#VSA1 and C1"#VSA2 seem to be linked together internally)
    Description:
    AGP Signaling Level Indicator: If this input is open, the AGP interface uses 3.3 volt signaling. If this input is shorted to ground, the AGP interface uses 1.5 volt signaling. On the evaluation board, this input is connected to a resistor network consisting of a 4.7 kohm resistor to 3.3V and a 100 ohm resistor to ground. This pin should be pulled up on PCI cards.

    - Indeed, on the Voodoo4 C1 is linked to the A2 pin on the AGP card connector, then connected to a 100 ohm resistor to ground. On the Voodoo5 REVA C1 is NOT linked to A2 as we already know, but still connected to a load of 440 ohm measured with my multimeter (could not be so accurate, but you got the idea). On the Voodoo5 REVA2 C1 is linked to A2, then connected to a load of 440 ohm measured with my multimeter.

    2) AGP_VREF_1_5V (AVR15), position P2 on the BGA package
    Description:
    AGP Voltage Reference: This input supplies the switching threshold for the AGP recievers for the 1.5V case. This is derived from a resistor network consisting of a 210 ohm 1% resistor to VDDQ and a 158 ohm 1% resistor to ground. There is a 0.1 uF capacitor in parallel with the resistor to ground.

    3) AGP_VREF_3V (AVR30), position P3 on the BGA package
    Description:
    AGP Voltage Reference: This input supplies the switching threshold for the AGP recievers for the 1.5V case
    (actually it shouldn't be 3.3V case?). This is derived from a resistor network consisting of a 210 ohm 1% resistor to VDDQ and a 158 ohm 1% resistor to ground. A second RC network cocnsists of a 210 ohm 1% resistor in series with a 560 pF cap to VDDQ and a 158 ohm 1% resistor in series with a 560 pF cap to ground. This is total of four resistors and two caps.

    These resistor networks are present on Voodoo4 and Voodoo5 (both REVA and REVA2 - I suppose REVA1 also).
    Theoretically, depending on the reading back from TYPEDET the card is able to use AVR15 circuit and select 1.5V signal if A2 is shorted, AVR30 and select 3.3V if A2 is open.

    I modified the picture taken by Löschzwerg (I hope He don't take it bad) when He took off the second VSA-100 from that Voodoo Zombie. It does show two important things:

    [Blockierte Grafik: http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6199/y541.jpg]

    1) P2" and P3" are clearly shorted - I assume the same for P2' and P3' (although I found that P2' and P3' are not directly connected to P2" and P3")
    2) At the bottom of BGAs are located the resistor networks (blue circle) - they seem to be AVR15 circuits
    3) Where are located AVR30 circuits then? I didn't find yet any resistor network which resembles to AVR30 description

    BTW, I modded a Voodoo5 REVA accordingly to my findings but without success until now. I have tested the card into universal AGP slot at the moment because I don't want modifying the agp card connector or motherboard slot yet. But I think I'll have to pick up a motherboard expressly for this task.

    About Voodoo5 REVA2:
    I have one of these card too. Mine it's dated 3500 as many others. In the last days I tried the card with two SiS645DX based motherboard, but it seems I'm bit out of luck; I'm annoyed to have found these motherboards as not working :mauer: , maybe the AGP slots are defective or dunno .. the last time I used they were ok :(
    Currently I'm using an EPoX EP-8K5A3+ and as someone else previously said already the card starts but at 3.3V (while Voodoo4 keeps working at 1.5V, lol!) - I have other motherboards with universal AGP slots but they are all based on the ViA KT333, so it's useless.

    Intel i875 chipsets, sadly, aren't gonna work:
    About 1 year an half ago I tried my REVA2 with an ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe (intel i875P, AGP3.0 slot). Well, as soon as I try to start the system, it keeps to power on and off continuously and so quickly that seems underpowered. Because of this issue I immediately quit the experimet, but no damage has occurred either to motherboard and REVA2. Today after reading the thread I tried again, but with the same weird result. This time I tried to measure the AGP voltage during the test; readings vary very much since voltage keeps dropping repeatedly but I would say it can't go over 0.6V. Dunno if the same chipset on any other motherboards will act differently, but with this mobo is a no go.

    Now... I did some research and found the following statement from Hercules:

    Zitat

    "Regarding Pin A2 signal, this pin signal is read only on AGP universalbus (with no AGP 4X notch), and on AGP universal bus, our board switch to AGP signals in 3.3 volts, you can read this spec on AGP 2.0 specs (chapters 4.3.5 and 4.3.6), so this Pin A2 signal is not relevant for a test on a non universal AGP bus, as on DFI VC11, and as on other i845 motherboards.

    The only conclusion one can make from Pin A2 signal is that, on a AGP universal bus (without the 4X notch), you use a 3.3 volts, but that is a signal voltage only for an AGP universal bus, it is not the signal for a i845 or i850 AGP bus."

    What does this tell us? If I plug the V5 AGP4x in a board using AGP universal slot it gives 3.3v.

    Exaclty, the card seems to act ALWAYS like you said if plugged into an universal AGP slot.
    But why? The Voodoo4 starts ALWAYS with 1.5V signal if the motherboard is capable of that...

    Zitat

    If you ask me the Rev A2 card is safe to be used in any kind of AGP board, beside AGP 8x only (AGR or XGR...). EDIT: 3dfx did everything right here. The Rev A2 work with 3.3v in AGP1.0 and universal boards; 1.5v on AGP4x notched boards.

    My experience with the P4C800-E Deluxe seems to confirm your thought (although nothing bad happened). But an AGP 3.0 slot shouldn't be backward compatible with 2.0 specifications? Looking at AGP3.0 documentation (page 39) an Universal 1.5V AGP3.0 Motherboard has an AGP slot 3.0 backward compatible with 2.0 standard, while an AGP3.0 Motherboard has a slot working only at 0.8V singaling (4X/8X) and has additional electrical ID to prevent AGP 1.5 V operation, but the fact is that I never found a motherboard which hadn't such compatibility and manufacturers never referred to a *universal AGP 3.0 slot* but simply to an AGP 3.0 slot (8X/4X @0.8V or 4X/2X maybe 1X too @1.5V). The Abit NF7 has a *so called* AGP 3.0 slot, but is able to feed the adapter with 1.5V singaling and this motherboard has proved to work with the REVA2. But the P4C800-E Deluxe doesn't seem to be different. The manual states clearly that The AGP 3.0 slot is able to feed 1.5V cards too and the Voodoo4 works indeed...

    BTW, sorry for the long post :spitze:

    Be ware with V5 AGP4x. I am sure card is not fully compatible AGP 1.5V. With my ABIT IS7 I handled to get it working but it never run ok. All the scores in test bench was very low and more when FSAA was enabled. Finally card dead for NOT right voltage- this is my opinion. Well, my card was an A1, but I think A2 will behaviour in same manner.

    There are others cards looks with an universal AGP4x as PROHET 4500 card but it only work 3.3V. There is a manner to check it via Multimeter. Here it worked fine but not sure if it is a definitive and real manner to test it. Check PINA2 to GROUND with a multimeter set 0hom. 0 mean 3.3V and 1 means 1.5V compatible.

    Good luck,
    Oscar.

    I think your card died for something else, maybe was already malfunctioning ... or something went wrong during the trip. The weird performances of which you are speaking seems to be a clue in that sense. Moreover, the A1 you owned for a while was clearly a 'prototype'. It had the NFR stickers that proved that was an ES card, so we have no info about the way that card worked or not. These A2's instead, dunno if all the A2's, but these which came out from eBay lately aren't ES cards. They don't have NFR stickers but have even "warranty" stickers instead.
    In the end there is no evicence that a voltage lower than 3.3V could damage the card. Maybe the fact that the card works successfully at 1.5V doesn't prove that it's safe either (actually it does if you ask me), but at the moment it shows the card can work at 1.5V, as the Voodoo4 4500 already do and the VSA-100 datasheet always stated.

    Actually, to check if the card is wired to accept 1.5V signal you should expect 0 on the display of your multimeter, not 1.
    Multimeter has to be set on the highest value of resistance (to be safe), one lead to the A2 TYPEDET# pin, the other lead to the ground.
    For reading = 1, A2 TYPEDET# is not connected, the device accepts 3.3V signal.
    For readings = 0 or /= 1, A2 TYPEDET# is grounded, the device accepts 1.5V signal.

    A2 pin is open on the KyroII 4500, so the card normally accepts 3.3V. But actually the STG4500 can accept 1.5V signal too, you have just to weld a jumper on the PCB which once closed put A2 to the ground. This way you make AGP4x bus rate available to the card.
    On the Voodoo5 5500 REVA (the regular one) A2 TYPEDET# is open, you can see with naked eyes that the pin is not linked to anything, so the card is detected as 3.3V device.
    On the Voodoo5 5500 REVA2 A2 TYPEDET# is grounded, so the card accepts both 3.3V and 1.5V. On the platforms following the AGP 2.0 standard you can always force 3.3V signal card detection by masking the A2 pin.

    I wonder why he didn't even TRY it with a normal card, such as a usual 5500 AGP, before? He would have found out it was bad for a VSA100 card without destroying a rare prototype.

    My suggestion: Let's stay serious and reasonable. Let's not insult him, but tell him the facts about what he is doing (or makes someone else doing) to rare hardware - and explain him how rare that hardware is. MAYBE - yes, I'm serious - MAYBE he'll start to THINK by his own. As a matter of fact, there is no other way to save the cards he bought (and those he is still trying to buy!) from death.

    Let's convince him. Believe in it: it IS possible. It MUST BE. It HAS to be. :(

    I completely agree with you, how can I not be?
    But unfortunately these right words are worth nothing.
    He got so many v56k that a rare prototype became a common card.
    These are his toys and He is gonna play with them like a kid.

    It's a shame what has happened to this card. He should better consider in selling some cards instead of destroying them!
    There are a lot of people who want to have a V5 6000, including me :)

    Give him more than 3000 euros and you can have ONE of his cards, 'cause that is the medium price he paid for every v56k he owns.

    O U T S T A N D I N G!

    Personally I don't like 3D Mark; could you post some results benching with the good old timedemo from Quake3 Arena please? Would be nice to see how the whole new memory amount affetcs performance in real gaming @32bit going through FSAA levels despite of the classic 64MB.

    Congratz my friend :thumbup: